The Library’s Nativity: Retrospection, Introspection, and Lessons Learned
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Send to friendThree years ago this December marks the anniversary of a complaint that lead to the termination of a library employee and the end of a 30 year old tradition: the display of a nativity scene at the Elwood Public Library. Tensions flared for quite some time after this complaint was made, and many people to this day hold strong opinions about the library’s actions in response. This post is meant to examine the facts and assess people’s thoughts after three years of retrospection.
For 30 years, the Elwood Public Library displayed a nativity scene within the library. As with many of the Holiday decorations throughout the library, the nativity was a festive piece that lifted the Holiday spirits of many individuals who visited the library, so why would anyone complain about the nativity scene if it was something enjoyed by so many?
Well, there is a difference between a secular decorative piece and one that represents a specific religion, such as the nativity. By displaying the nativity, the library was giving Christianity a platform over other religions, which violates the Establishment Clause. Nativity scenes are wonderful and perfectly legal in homes, churches, or nongovernmental places, but not public libraries, where they often cause feelings of exclusivity for non-Christians. It was for this reason that the complaint was made.
Many people were upset that the library chose to remove the nativity based on one person’s complaint, and some went as far as to claim that the United States is made up of a Christian majority and was founded on Christianity. The United States, however, was not founded on Christianity, and many sources support this fact, including the Constitution, which was drafted with the purposeful omittance of the word god. But it is the Treaty of Tripoli – signed by John Adams – that most directly rebukes this old chestnut by explicitly stating: “As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion …”
With that said, there is no disputing the fact that Christians make up the majority in this country, but we do not live in a direct majority democracy; we live in a liberal democratic republic, which protects individual rights and liberties against the tyrannical tendencies of the majority. Therefore, even if every resident in Elwood, except the one who complained, wanted to keep the nativity, the library would still have to obey the law.
In hindsight, the library’s actions were not perfect, but the Board of Trustees ultimately did the right thing. They created a library policy that prohibits religious displays and terminated an employ for writing vulgarities about the complainant and revealing his confidential library information. This employee had every right to voice her opinion, but she went about it the wrong way. Therefore, she was not fired by the library because she stood up for her beliefs; she was fired because of what she said and revealed about the complainant.
For those of you who have boycotted the library as a result of what happened three years ago, please reconsider. The Elwood Public Library is a public jewel: an institution full of information and entertainment. Please take advantage of all it has to offer, despite the feelings you may still harbor about the aftermath of the nativity complaint.
I was so hoping that this thread would not rear its ugly head again!!! But of course the author continues his tirade!! Other members out there, let us ban together and make this comment ( my comment) the final one!! I've had quite enough of this person in my life and his continued brow-beating. Enough is enough.... Let us all say.... ENOUGH!!
A great article that speaks to the reasons why we should accept reality rather than relying on the preternatural myths found in the Bible. The author’s background as a Protestant minister might surprise you. Enjoy! http://richarddawkins.net/articles/645853-conversion-on-mount-improbable...
Best,
Luv2Jabber
I was never debating him on Religion. I was making a point about this new Generation.
There attitude is ME,Myself and I and last what will the Government give me for free !! I get tired of being accused of not caring. I find it funny our house is Burning down and a lot of you your still are looking at new curtains !!! Greece is burning too!! I guess we can wait till were in the same boat.
My point was ANDSS was this is the Democrat Party of today. I don't think all Democrats think this way at all. But the one's controlling the party do.
I know people that are Democrats they are old school. They think the party really cares for the poor and working class. They don't!! Luv2jabber is the new Democrats of today. Some even admit they are European socialist.
watchingu2, any type of insinuation that democrats do not believe in GOD is an insult. Surely that's not what you're saying?! Please tell us you are not that shallow.
Now go and try to donate to the needy and squeeze a couple of nickels out of that tight ass of yours.
BTW - nobody wins an argument about religion....nobody! I agree with threejsmom. You are all beating a dead horse. Move on!
Dang.....I was hoping this thread would get buried and forgotten. A dead horse cannot be beaten to life.
Luv2jabber I have been reading your post and after the last post I understand you.
There is a Book out. I think it's called " How to Kill 11 million people " or "How TO KILL 11 MILLION JEWS.
You need to read this. You have been lied to and Indoctrinated in our public schools and college. To everybody else LUV2JABBER MAKES MY POINT !!! The Huffington Post is a far left hate web site. People who disagree with them are smeared and Lied about. The same people that Preach tolerance !! But only if you agree with them.
They do not post facts. This is where Luv2jabber is getting information.
When I have made Posts in the past about the Liberal,secular,progressive movement in this country this is what I mean. Luv2jabber makes that point !!!! He has been indoctrinated in to the Quasi european style socialism. He thinks he is so smart he does not even understand. I bet he loves OBAMA !! This is the Democrat Party today!! He is a little Hitler !! luv2jabber YOUR BEING SUCKERED
ANDSS think about it!!
The Fall of Foolish Faith: Physicist and author Victor Stenger calls upon scientists and all thinking people to focus their attention on reducing the influence of religion. Published: March 9, 2012. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/victor-stenger/the-fall-of-foolish-faith_b...
This is God's universe. And he does things His way. You may have a better way...but you don't have a universe.~ Jay Vernon McGee
So you have a college transcript without the name of the institution on it, huh? Hmmm! :)
Few things that need to be set straight with you Jabber, First, my wife is the one you are hounding about her education. Let me tell you something, I graduated from Butler and the stuff she is doing far surpasses what I took in college. Just by reading the posts on here, all I hear from you is a bunch of whining and basically being an asshole on here. No one it seems cares much for you so why not do the world a favor and just go away.
This is Jacob's spouse. I usually don't get on here, hell I don't even have a sign in, yet... But let me tell you something luv2Jabber, I went and graduated from Butler University and the work my wife is doing is over my head. Reading all that you have written on this post, it seems like to me that you like to run your mouth a whole hell of a lot, but you have nothing to back up anything you say. Seems like to me that you trive on drama and attention.Seems like to me you are just a pain in the butt.
No not ashamed at all. I copied what was on my page. that is all. Funny U.S. News has an article on online education and Ashford is the top. Ashford is also A real College in Iowa. They are also regionally and nationally accredited. I already have a college set up to get my masters when I graduate next year. Indiana Wesleyan University, but of course you with find something wrong with that also Im sure. You just have college envy... lol I would be surprised if you even went to college let along finished high school. Oh guess you forgot to noticed that I also attended IUPUI and I also attended Heron Art School for two years on a full scholarship. You are pathetic....
Jacobs,
So you’re going to Ashford University, huh? I hear their entrance requirements are insanely demanding. :) Do you have to graduate high school to go there?
I’m sorry for finding this so amusing, but Ashford University is even more comical than Ivy Tech. By the way, you seemed so proud to display your transcript for all to see, so why did you exclude the name of the institution you attend? Are you embarrassed that you go to Ashford University?
Don’t feel sorry for me for not having faith – feel sorry for yourself for wasting money on a worthless education.
Best,
Luv2jabber
first off I want to say that good for anyone that goes on with their education, and if it is IVY tech great. my son went there. It is a good way to get what you need without all the other crap, and end up owing like I do right now about 31 thousand dollars. but that is the cost of a Bachelors degree, so to you luv2jabber.... here is my transcripts so far.
My Progress Towards Graduation
Credits Completed:
Credits Needed: 36.00
Credits In-Progress:
Credits Scheduled:
84.00
18.00
3.00
Credits Not Scheduled: 15.00
120.00*
* In addition to the credit requirements, students are also required to satisfy additional requirement rules.
^ Courses fulfilling more than one requirement will award credit only once.
Requirement Rules
Upper Division Rule
Not Scheduled
Credits
Scheduled
Credits
In-Progress
Credits
39.00 3.00 9.00 0.00
Required
Credits
Completed
Credits
30.00
0 3 6 9 12 15 18 21 24 27 30
Details
Introductory Course Requirement
Course Title
Earned
Credits Status Grade
Required
Requirement Course # Credits
EXP 105 EXP 105 PERSONAL DIMENSIONS OF EDUCATION 3.00 3.00 COMPLETE A
PSY 202 PSY 202 ADULT DEVELOPMENT AND LIFE ASSESSMENT 3.00 3.00 COMPLETE A
Totals: 6.00 6.00
General Education Requirements
Course Title
Earned
Credits Status Grade
Required
Requirement Course # Credits
HISTORICAL AWARENESS HIS 103 WORLD CIVILIZATIONS I 3.00 0.00 NOT SCHEDULED
PHYSICAL WORLD SCI 207 DEPENDENCE OF MAN ON THE ENVIRONMENT 4.00 0.00 NOT SCHEDULED
AESTHETIC AWARENESS ENG 225 INTRODUCTION TO FILM 3.00 3.00 COMPLETE BLITERATURE
ENG 125 INTRODUCTION TO LITERATURE 3.00 3.00 COMPLETE AMULTICULTURAL
AWARENESS ANT 101 INTRODUCTION TO CULTURAL ANTHROPOLOGY 3.00 3.00 COMPLETE A
SOCIAL PERSPECTIVES PSY 202^ ADULT DEVELOPMENT AND LIFE ASSESSMENT 3.00 3.00 COMPLETE A
VALUES & BELIEFS I PSY 301 SOCIAL PSYCHOLOGY 3.00 3.00 COMPLETE B+
VALUES & BELIEFS II FOLK-F 101 INTRODUCTION TO FOLKLORE 3.00 3.00 TRANSFERRED T
Totals: 25.00 18.00
General Education Competencies (Requires grade of C- or better)
Course Title
Earned
Credits Status Grade
Required
Requirement Course # Credits
COMMUNICATION III COM 200 INTERPERSONAL COMMUNICATION 3.00 0.00 SCHEDULED
CRITICAL THINKING PHI 103 INFORMAL LOGIC 3.00 0.00 SCHEDULED
MATHEMATICS MAT 126 SURVEY OF MATHEMATICAL METHODS 3.00 0.00 SCHEDULED
APPLIED ETHICS PHI 107 PHILOSOPHY OF HUMAN CONDUCT 3.00 3.00 COMPLETE A
COMMUNICATION I ENG 121 ENGLISH COMPOSITION I 3.00 3.00 COMPLETE ACOMMUNICATION
II ENG 122 ENGLISH COMPOSITION II 3.00 3.00 COMPLETE ACOMPUTER
COMP INF 103 COMPUTER LITERACY 3.00 3.00 COMPLETE A
University Page 1 of 3
Jacobs
Program: Bachelor of Arts
Name: Start Date:
Apr 15, 2013
May 12, 2009
Est. Graduation Date:
Major: Applied Behavioral Science
Major GPA: 3.56
Major: Psychology
Major GPA: 3.54
Academic Status:
Cumulative Undergraduate GPA: 3.66
Active
Totals: 21.00 12.00
Major-Applied Behavioral Science: Major Course Requirements
Course Title
Earned
Credits Status Grade
Required
Requirement Course # Credits
ABS 497 ABS 497 APPLIED BEHAVIORAL SCIENCES CAPSTONE 3.00 0.00 NOT SCHEDULED
SOC 320 SOC 320 PUBLIC POLICY & SOCIAL SERVICES 3.00 0.00 SCHEDULED
SOC 402 SOC 402 CONTEMPORARY SOCIAL PROBLEMS & THE WORKPLACE 3.00 0.00 SCHEDULED
ABS 200 ABS 200 INTRODUCTION TO APPLIED BEHAVIORAL SCIENCES 3.00 3.00 COMPLETE A
ABS 415 ABS 415 LEADERSHIP & ETHICS IN A CHANGING WORLD 3.00 3.00 COMPLETE A
ABS 417 ABS 417 COMMUNITY ORGANIZING & DEVELOPMENT 3.00 3.00 COMPLETE B
COM 321 COM 321 COMMUNICATION THEORY 3.00 3.00 COMPLETE APSY
301 PSY 301^ SOCIAL PSYCHOLOGY 3.00 3.00 COMPLETE B+
PSY 304 PSY 304 LIFESPAN DEVELOPMENT 3.00 3.00 COMPLETE A
PSY 325 PSY 325 STATISTICS FOR THE BEHAVIORAL & SOCIAL SCIENCES 3.00 3.00 COMPLETE A
PSY 326 PSY 326 RESEARCH METHODS 3.00 3.00 COMPLETE C+
SOC 203 SOC 203 SOCIAL PROBLEMS 3.00 3.00 COMPLETE APSY
101 PSY-P 103. GENERAL PSYCHOLOGY 3.00 3.00 TRANSFERRED T
Totals: 39.00 30.00
Major-Psychology: Core Course Requirements
Course Title
Earned
Credits Status Grade
Required
Requirement Course # Credits
PSY 496 PSY 496 APPLIED PROJECT 3.00 0.00 SCHEDULED
PSY 331 PSY 331 PSYCHOLOGY OF LEARNING 3.00 0.00 IN-PROGRESS
PSY 104 PSY 104 CHILD AND ADOLESCENT DEVELOPMENT 3.00 3.00 COMPLETE APSY
202 PSY 202^ ADULT DEVELOPMENT AND LIFE ASSESSMENT 3.00 3.00 COMPLETE A
PSY 301 PSY 301^ SOCIAL PSYCHOLOGY 3.00 3.00 COMPLETE B+
PSY 302 PSY 302 INDUSTRIAL/ORGANIZATIONAL PSYCHOLOGY 3.00 3.00 COMPLETE A
PSY 303 PSY 303 ABNORMAL PSYCHOLOGY 3.00 3.00 COMPLETE B+
PSY 325 PSY 325^ STATISTICS FOR THE BEHAVIORAL & SOCIAL SCIENCES 3.00 3.00 COMPLETE A
PSY 326 PSY 326^ RESEARCH METHODS 3.00 3.00 COMPLETE C+
PSY 330 PSY 330 THEORIES OF PERSONALITY 3.00 3.00 COMPLETE A
PSY 350 PSY 350 PHYSIOLOGICAL PSYCHOLOGY 3.00 3.00 COMPLETE B+
PSY 101 PSY-P 103.^ GENERAL PSYCHOLOGY 3.00 3.00 TRANSFERRED T
Totals: 36.00 30.00
Elective Requirement
Course Title
Earned
Credits Status Grade
Required
Requirement Course # Credits
ELECTIVE SOC 101 INTRODUCTION TO SOCIOLOGY 3.00 3.00 COMPLETE A
ELECTIVE SOC 304 SOCIAL GERONTOLOGY 3.00 3.00 COMPLETE A
ELECTIVE SOC 315 CROSS-CULTURAL PERSPECTIVES 3.00 3.00 COMPLETE B+
Totals: 14.00 9.00
Jacobs
Program: Bachelor of Arts
Name: Start Date:
Apr 15, 2013
May 12, 2009
Est. Graduation Date:
Major: Applied Behavioral Science
Major GPA: 3.56
Major: Psychology
Major GPA: 3.54
Academic Status:
Cumulative Undergraduate GPA: 3.66
Active
Transfer Credit Summary
IUPUI KOKOMO
INDIANA UNIVERSITY-KOKOMO
Course # Course Title Grade Applied To
Applied
Credits
Course
Credits Transfer Term
FOLK-F 101 INTRODUCTION TO FOLKLORE 3.00 3.00 A GE - VALUES & BELIEFS II
PSY-P 103. GENERAL PSYCHOLOGY 3.00 3.00 B+ INTRODUCTION TO PSYCHOLOGY
The Transfer Credit Summary is a listing by school of the courses that have been applied to your degree. If you feel
that there is an error with this summary, please contact your Academic Advisor immediately.
Totals: 6.00 6.00
- End of Report -
luv2jabber,
Just another thing that shows you have no clue on what you are talking about......
sorry to disapoint but I am in my last year of college on the deans list and a GPA of 3.66. and the funny thing is you never stated that you used someone elses work until you were busted. so blah blah blah.... that is all you do when you get called out when you are wrong. Oh so than you resort to put downs and insults... you have no orginal thought.... you are just not worth my time or energy anymore. bye bye... Hope that someday you find God. I feel sorry for you. to have no faith must be a horrible thing.
Wow, Jacobs! You have to be pretending because I cannot imagine anyone who is in collage lacking as much intelligence as you. Wait a minute, I guess I can; you go to Ivy Tech, don’t you?
Anyway, as I’ve said, I used NonStampCollector’s video in first-person narrative to make a point. NonStampCollector’s video, however, is not original as many secularists have used that same argument to point out the absurdities of Christianity. In fact, I was using that argument in my late teens – long before NonStampCollector even started making videos. The reason I used his video is because I had convenient access to its print transcript, which allowed me to copy and paste with minor alterations rather than typing the whole thing.
Furthermore, NonStampCollector’s videos are very popular; therefore, I would have been surprised had someone not recognized it from my reply. The problem is, however, that I was using rhetoric in my response to Tammy; hence, the first-person narrative. If I would have cited NonStampCollector or provided a link to his video, it would have taken away from the rhetoric. Have you learned about rhetoric at Ivy Tech yet?
Also, there is a difference between using words from a video that present a common argument against Christianity in a thread and plagiarizing in school. I am not being graded on my comments in this thread, and NonStampCollector does not mind that I used the transcript from his video to make a point as his goal is to make the very same point that I am: Christianity is ridiculous.
Best,
Luv2jabber
I checked with the administrator and you are wrong again jabber. Every view is a view. If someone looks at this thread 50 times a day it counts 50 views. We have looked over 500 times and so have you. That would cover 20% of views. It would only take a handful of people looking every day over 4 months to reach the rest of the view count. We have enjoyed the entertainment!! N'yuk! N'yuk! N'yuk!! Best, 3/11/12 Guest
luv2 here is a copy of what you posted since you have such a short term memory problem, might want to pray for some help with that. Read the first few sentences... you know I found the author online, but you put your name in their place and did not even bother to cite what you claimed was your script.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Tammy,
Actually, I had a conversation with God the other day. The following is an exact transcript.
God: “Hello … Hello!”
Luv2jabber: “What … What? Who’s that?”
God: “This is God; the one true god.”
------------------------------------------------------------------
now looks like to me you tired to make it look like that was your work, as it did to others on here. You put someone else's work on here and tried to claim it as your own. you can dance around it all you want and be a jerk and call all the names you want but it still does not change the fact that you are a liar...
luv2jabber, sorry, I have not shown ignorance on here, you have by your lying and plagiarism. You took credit for someone else's work. If I did that in one of my college courses I would get kicked out of school. But no, once again, you try to wiggle your way out, and then lower yourself to name calling again. your just pissed off because you got called out, lol... your a joke. really...
Jacobs,
Your ignorance never ceases to amaze me. By saying that I took credit for the piece, you must be referring to when I said, “I had a conversation with God the other day. The following is an exact transcript.” Did you think I was serious when I said I had a conversation with God and had an exact transcript of it? I’m an atheist; therefore, I don’t believe in any gods – including yours. My reply to Tammy was satirical; it was not meant, as far as me actually talking to God, to be taken seriously – just as your Bible and your religion cannot be taken seriously. Calm down, think and read the replies throughout the thread before commenting so you don’t look so glib, okay?
Best,
Luv2jabber
lol, luv2jabber, bottom line is if you go and check you did take credit for that piece. lol.,and then when you get caught you try to cover it up. plagiarism and lying are plagiarism and lying. then you start name calling Christians, Again, you have no credibility.... your a joke.
Wrong again jabber!!! I ain't as simple minded as you think. I checked out the counting system before I posted. Every time someone goes to a forum counts as a view. Hit refresh 5 times = 5 views. Try it. You still don't get why we find you funny? Maybe your 6 year old will explain it to ya!!! Hey Moe!!!Hey Larry!!! N'yuk N'yuk N'yuk!!! Best, 3/11/12 Guest.
My 6-year-old nephew has more reasoning skills than many of the people who have posted to this thread, including you Anonymous Guest on 3/11/12.
I don’t think you’re right when it comes to your math as the system doesn’t count users who return multiple times to view the same reply. If you would like to test this, check the total number of views prior to clicking on the topic. Then check the total number of views again after leaving the topic. I assume there will be one extra view, but do this a second time and you will not see an extra view. I believe the system recognizes IP addresses to prevent skewing of statistics. I might be completely wrong, however, and for this reason, I’m going to go a step beyond your math and concede that 100%, besides me, of the people who viewed this thread are under the exact same sky fairy delusion as you and found my reasoning comical. This does nothing, however, to support your belief in your deity.
Instead of looking at this thread as if watching a Three Stogies episode, why don’t you point out the flaws in my reasoning? Why don’t you support your sky fairy in defense of my claims? It’s easy to say, “Boy was it entertaining and has made my faith in God stronger!!!!” But can you explain why? Can you support your belief with sound reasoning? I’m sorry I have to ask so many questions, but when dealing with simple minds, it’s become apparent to me that I have to be very thorough when trying to get them to bring forth their arguments without a bunch of vacuous nonsense.
I used NonStampCollector’s parody in first-person narrative to demonstrate a point to Tammy, but that doesn’t take from the validity of the point I made. I could have put a link to the video in the thread, but that wouldn’t have been as affective when demonstrating my point as I was doing so in first-person. Besides, even though NonStampCollector did an excellent job on that video, it’s not like non-sky fairy believers, including myself, have not been using that very same argument to demonstrate the absurdity of Christianity for a very long time; I just happened to have access to the NonStampCollector’s print transcript and quickly copied it into the thread with some minor alterations to save time.
NonStampCollector was ridiculing your religion; therefore, do you really think he minds that I copied it into this thread to do the same? His whole objective, just like mine, is to point out the absurdities of your delusion. But it’s easy to just throw it aside since Luv2jabber borrowed it, isn’t it? “Oh, Luv2jabber used someone else’s video, so his point means nothing. We can continue to think irrationally and believe in our wonderful daddy big boss up in heaven!” Give me a break.
Best,
Luv2jabber
6T7_GT has a point. I get on here at least 3 times a day and my wife 2 or 3 times a day. At an average of 5 views a day from us over the hundred plus days this has ran would mean that over 10% of views have been from us. It would take only a few other that visit often to quickly reach the total views. There hasn't been anywhere near 4000 different people view as jabber thinks. And half of the comments have been from jabber and the other half from a handful of others not alot of different people posting just a few. We get a kick out of jabber for the humor of it all like the 3 Stooges! Now we find out these ain't even his words but he "borrowed" from others without giving them credit to make himself look smart. Boy was it entertaining and has made my faith in God stronger!!!! Thanks jabber!!!!
6T7_GT has a point. I get on here at least 3 times a day and so does my wife. Even at an average of 5 views a day over the 108 days this has ran that would be 540 views out of 4586. Better than 10% of who's read you just from me and her. How many people who get on here alot would it take to get at the number of views? There ain't been anywhere near 4ooo different people read this! You'll never change our faith or anybody else. We just get a kick out of you is the only reason we keep reading you. Kinda like the 3 Stooges! Now we find out you been "borrowing" all this info and passing it along as yours with no credit to those who really said it. Really makes your case!!!! In time all truth is shown!!!!
i have supported my claims and beliefs on here. i also do not believe God is Jesus, i believe that Jesus is God's son. now i know that people will argue with me about that , but that is my belief and i do have scripture to back that up but then some can say they do also, that is how i see the bible my interpretation. one pastor told me if i did not come to the same conclusion as him, i may as well not read the bible, i quit going to his church. now if you choose to hate God or not to believe in him, don't, it is not going to shatter my faith one way or another. you have called me and others on here several names and i am done, i have said all i can to answer your questions to the best of my abilities, it is up to you now danielson....
1000 more views than any other!!! A few people yes that look a couple times a day every day of the week for over 3 months..A few people just look to see your stupidity, and thats all it is. "Twice as many comments"? Half have been you! OH, Have not seen anyone post on here that you have reached yet. Get a grip!!! You're a legend in your on mind!!!!!
Jacobs,
I didn’t get busted as I am not taking credit for the video Nonstampcollector created. I was simply using his video in first-person narrative to demonstrate a point; it’s called hyperbole.
The whole reason I posted the topic about the nativity at the library was to inform ignoramuses, such as yourself, that you do not have special privileges as a Christian, e.g., the nativity at the library. I included in that post that the United States is not a Christian nation, which it is not, and in return, people commented that it is and wrote a bunch of other drivel about Christianity as well. I then began addressing their absurdities with facts and evidence while sometimes using rhetoric developed by others in my responses.
You are right; everyone has a right to believe what he/she wants, but as I’ve said, you will not be taken seriously when you make truth claims that are insanely ridiculous. What have you done to support your belief? Nothing! And it’s because you know as well as I do that you have nothing more to support your belief in Christianity then a loony who spouts off about Elvis still being alive or some other absurd belief. Bring forth reason for your belief instead of crying. I’ve provided numerous reasons to not believe, including direct quotes from scripture.
Your belief is ridiculous and you know it, but you need big brother looking over you, so you will do whatever it takes to protect your belief from persecution, even calling me mean and hateful in the process. But you need to ask yourself if I’m really being mean and hateful. Who cares that I don’t believe in something that you have done nothing to support? Does it hurt you to hear me call a spade a spade? Again, I’m just asking you to bring rationality to the table in support of your argument. Can you think of any rational arguments in support of your belief? Or can you think of something I have said that is not true about your belief? Let’s have a discussion were we both provide premises to support our claims without the crying. Start out by defining your god and why you believe in him. If you can’t do that, please leave the discussion as I’m tired of hearing you whine. I’m giving you the opportunity to support and provide evidence for your belief for everyone to read, but instead you just talk about how mean I am.
This topic has received nearly twice as many comments as any other and well over 1000 more views than any other. What makes you think I haven’t reached a few people that agree that it’s not right for people like you to make truth claims about your belief without any support and expect protection from people who question your belief? Cry all you want, Jacobs, but I am going to continue calling you out on all your absurdities.
Best,
Luv2jabber
lol you got busted, you claimed someone else's work as yours, and for your info, I did watch the video, and I have talked to people that were atheists, actually my spouse was one when we were dating, doesn't change my beliefs, and I do believe that everyone has the right to believe what they want,but you have done nothing but persecute Christians on here, and that is not right. That is why I referred to you as Hitler. I mean who are you to put anyone down for what they believe in? You are just another human being on this great big earth. You don't believe in God. So freaking what? That is your choice. I chose to believe in God, as do many others on here. So what exactly is your point? Do you think with your rantings that you are going on about is going to change anyone persons faith? What people believe in is a very personal and important thing to them and for you to make fun of them and their beliefs is just wrong. It is not funny. It is mean and hateful.
Jacobs,
Oh, no! You figured me out!
NonStampCollector does not mind me borrowing from one of his videos to demonstrate the ludicrousness of your belief as we nonbelievers all borrow from one another when combating the idiocy of theists. I encourage you to watch all his videos; he’s not as gentle as I. I also borrowed stuff from Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris, but that does nothing to offer validity to your ridiculous belief. I encourage you to watch their videos too, but alas, you won’t, because nothing will persuade you from your delusion, will it?
Best,
Luv2jabber
A classic! Conversation with God (Yahweh)on youtube and on the internet,
this is online and Luv2jabber took this and tried to make it seem as this was their own thing they came up with.....hummm taking credit for something they did not write, Nothing you say can be taken seriously because you have no original ideas....but you take credit from others and say they are your own.... nuff said...
Tammy,
Actually, I had a conversation with God the other day. The following is an exact transcript.
God: “Hello … Hello!”
Luv2jabber: “What … What? Who’s that?”
God: “This is God; the one true god.”
Luv2jabber: “God … really? Wow, there’s so much I want to ask you! You have all the answers to the scientific and philosophical questions we have always wondered about!”
God: “Yes, and I come here with good news: I love you so much that I’m going to save you!”
Luv2jabber: “Save me?”
God: “Yes, I accept your burden; your price has been paid!”
Luv2jabber: “Um, what price? Save me from what?”
God: “I’m going to save you from eternal separation from me after you die … from hell.”
Luv2jabber: “Separation and hell?”
God: “Yes, hell: a place of eternal lake fire; a place of nothing but pain and punishment forever! But fear not my beloved child as you needn’t be sent there.”
Luv2jabber: “Sent into a lake of fire forever – what for?!”
God: “Well, for your rebellion against me.”
Luv2jabber: “Rebellion against you? Wait a minute, exactly which god are you?”
God: “I’m Yahweh.”
Luv2jabber: “Well, nice to meet you, Yahweh. Now, um, why do you want to punish me for eternity?”
God: “Well, I made the rules for everyone, and I set them out very clearly. You rebelled against my rules.”
Luv2jabber: “I did?”
God: “Haven’t you read my book? I wrote the greatest book the world has ever known, which contains the greatest message of love and a perfect guide to morality. I dictated it to a desert tribe in the Middle East between 2 and 5 thousand years ago. It says to be kind to each other and treat people the way you want to be treated. Plus there are a few other hundred pages of really violent stuff about killing that … um, doesn’t really matter anymore!”
Luv2jabber: “So you decided to send people to a lake of fire for eternity when they decided to not treat each other nicely, right?”
God: “No, the way it started was: there was this tree, which I told Adam and Eve (your ancestors) not to eat off of, but they did, so everyone goes to hell!”
Luv2jabber: “Right, so they ate off the tree and you decided that you should punish them in a lake of fire forever?”
God: “Well, yes.”
Luv2jabber: “So where do I come into this?”
God: “Well, the good news is that since that happened I’ve saved you from the punishment for what they did.”
Luv2jabber: “I’m getting punished for what someone else did? That is not fair! Do you call that just?”
God: “Yes, I’m perfectly just! It’s absolutely fair and just that you be burned forever for their crime; you are a direct descendant! But let’s get back to the point: since I don’t want you to go to hell …”
Luv2jabber: “You don’t?”
God: “No, of course not. I don’t want anyone to go to hell.”
Luv2jabber: “Well, why then are you going to send us all there?”
God: “Because I have to … those are the rules of the universe! Now will you just let me finish?!”
Luv2jabber: “Sorry.”
God: “Since I don’t want you or anyone else to go to hell, I made myself into a man a couple thousand years ago in the Middle East and had myself killed.”
Luv2jabber: “Um, I don’t get it.”
God: “Well, it was a sacrifice – a blood sacrifice – I paid your price.”
Luv2jabber: “Paid … to whom?”
God: “Well, to me.”
Luv2jabber: “To you?”
God: “Yes.”
Luv2jabber: “So you sacrificed yourself to yourself so that you wouldn’t have to send me to hell for my ancestors having eaten from a tree you told them not to eat from?”
God: “Yes. It’s just that I told them that I didn’t want them to eat from that tree, and I gave them free will so that they had the option not to obey me if they didn’t want to. And they disobeyed me! They ate from the tree, so they and every single human being who ever lives has to be sent to hell after they die to burn forever!
Luv2jabber: “Sent to hell … by you?”
God: “Yes, of course, by me! Who else has the power to take someone’s soul and have it punished and tortured for eternity? But I made it so you don’t have to go to hell anymore; isn’t that great! Do you see how much I love you?”
Luv2jabber: “Because of this human sacrifice in the Middle East?”
God: “Yes, I purchased your forgiveness.”
Luv2jabber: “You purchased it from yourself!”
God: “Yep, I purchased it with my own blood.”
Luv2jabber: Well, why not just forgive?”
God: “What?”
Luv2jabber: “Why not just forgive?”
God: “What do you mean?”
Luv2jabber: “Well, you’re God; you’re all powerful; you don’t want to send people to hell – so just don’t.”
God: “Yeah, I’m afraid it doesn’t quite work that way.”
Luv2jabber: “Why not? No one is going to argue with you if you don’t send them to hell – so just change your mind if you want to and then you don’t have to send anyone to hell, do you?
God: “I’M GOD; I DON’T JUST CHANGE MY MIND! I’M ALWAYS THE SAME; I NEVER CHANGE; I’M ETERNAL!”
Luv2jabber: “Never?”
God: “Well, some things maybe – like almost all of my book – but this is about a law that I haven’t changed my mind about. In the beginning, I gave people free will and the freedom to disobey me if they choose, but if they choose to disobey me, I send them to hell.”
Luv2jabber: “Then why give them free will?”
God: “I wanted them to do my will voluntarily because they love me, but they didn’t. I’ve had to go to a lot of trouble for you all. I even had myself nailed to a crucifix.”
Luv2jabber: “To satisfy your own appetite for punishment and death!”
God: “Look, I’m trying very hard to save your soul from eternal torcher here. I’m offering to forgive you for being born despicable and not being perfect if you accept it.”
Luv2jabber: “Accept it?”
God: “Yes, I did this human sacrifice in the Middle East, and the way it takes effect is that you have to hear about it and believe it. Therefore, if you don’t start believing, I’m going to judge you after you die as to not living up to my ideal, and as a result, I’m going to burn you for eternity, okay?
Luv2jabber: “So you’re saying I have to believe all this stuff and then I’m saved, right?”
God: “Yes, that’s it. All you have to do is believe this stuff and devout the rest of your life to me.”
Luv2jabber: “Yeah, but the problem with that is that …”
God: “WHAT NOW!”
Luv2jabber: “Well, I can’t just start believing by choice, right? I can’t just decide to believe that I’m Napoleon – just because I want to believe that I’m Napoleon. If I could, I would be in a mental hospital.
God: “I did design humans with very strong reasoning abilities.”
Luv2jabber: “So how come in order to have my eternal soul saved from your sentence of never ending torcher you require me to believe something that appears absolutely ridiculous?”
God: “That is why I invented this thing called faith, which is the ability to convince one’s self of things on absolutely no evidence whatsoever. And it’s not insanity, okay? Faith is different to insanity! If you believe something ridiculous on faith, it’s actually very respectable.”
Luv2jabber: “Faith? Hasn’t an unquestioning adherence to outrageous, untested claims been behind every wacko who’s ever gone on a killing spree?”
God: “Look, reason and evidence are good, but they are not going to save you from hell, so I recommend you not concern yourself with them too much.”
Luv2jabber: “Okay, so what happens after I die if I somehow choose to believe this stuff on no evidence in order to escape your eternal punishment?”
God: “I’m glad you finally asked. If you accept my forgiveness for being born appalling, then you get to live forever worshiping and thanking me day and night while singing me praises eternally.”
Luv2jabber: “Forever?”
God: “Yes, for every minute of eternity, my people will be praising, worshiping, giving me thanks, and adoring me; you’re going to worship and thank me never-endingly for having made you and having the grace to punish myself rather than you for your crime of not being perfect. Do you see how much I love you? You first have to believe, okay? But don’t wait too long; you have to believe and commit yourself now in the absence of evidence before you can really see if any of this is true in an objective sense. Basically, I put you on earth to see how effectively you could shut down the reasoning abilities I gave you and believe in something that appears absolutely made up. Fail the test and you will burn; pass the test and I’ll allow you to worship me forever.”
Luv2jabber: “Wow, that’s really generous of you to give us that choice.”
God: “Yes, I know; its grace. I do it because I’m the essence of perfect love. Goodbye.”
Luv2jabber: “Yeah, thanks, you really cleared things up for me.”
Best,
Luv2jabber
once again i still don't have the answers that you seek, your struggle with your beliefs are gonna have to come from God, i am only human and do not know his will. listen if God himself spoke out loud to people do you think they would listen ? the people who were wondering in the desert for 40 years built a golden calf after they saw all the plagues of Egypt and God having moses part the red sea, yet they still worshiped a golden calf, how stupid was that, then when they were wondering around they wanted something different to eat besides the manna God gave them to eat and began to grumble, now being as they saw all of this and did not mind God or believe in him, what makes you think that all the sin that goes on in this world, that we even deserve God's love. But we do get it, if we seek it. once again free will is at hand. if God spoke to you right now would you believe or would you think someone was pulling your leg or being punked. look in your heart not your mind on some things.
Luv2jabber, wow, really? you just can't quit bullying people, everyone on here has a right to voice their opinion, but they don't have to do it in a way that is derogatory toward their beliefs or their intelligence .. I remember someone in history that was like you who had no tolerance for religion, the Jewish religion. It was Adolf Hitler. You don't just say you don't believe in God but you put people down for their beliefs,you make fun of what to them is sacred, and then put them down as a person. Yep, from now on to me your just a little Adolf.
Tammy,
You said: “once again your looking at a church group who jailed Galileo … Did God tell them to do that, no, put your faith in God not men cause men will fail.”
According to the Bible, “At that time Joshua spoke to the LORD in the day when the LORD gave the Amorites over to the sons of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, ‘Sun, stand still at Gibeon, and moon, in the Valley of Aijalon.’ And the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies … The sun stopped in the midst of heaven and did not hurry to set for about a whole day” (Joshua 10:13).
The sun is always still in the sky. It is the rotation of the earth that gives an illusion that the sun moves in the sky. People who lived when the Bible was written would have assumed the sun moved around the earth – which is why it “stopped” – but wouldn’t God have known better? And doesn’t the Bible reflect what God knows: “All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness” (2 Timothy 3:16)?
Well, with that said, was it really men who failed when they jailed Galileo? They were only trying to punish a man for being blasphemous toward the word of God. Therefore, they were acting on misinformation from God as written in the Bible, which was “breathed out by God.” Would Galileo have spent his final years under house arrest had God been honest in the Bible about the structure of our solar system?
Best,
Luv2jabber
Jacobs,
You don’t try using government resources to trumpet your piety, and I’ll let it go. You don’t expect to be taken seriously by rational people when you make truth claims about your religion, and I’ll let it go. Deal?
Best,
Luv2jabber
Than just let it go. Geez, you don't agree with me and I don't agree with you. so freak'n what? lets try focusing on more positive things here. You know this is just a dog chasing its own tail, you are going to believe what you want just as we believe what we want.
Jacobs,
I have said multiple times throughout this thread that I cannot prove there is no god(s), but the burden of proof is not on me. To demonstrate this, let me ask you the following: do you believe in leprechauns? I’m pretty certain you don’t, which is because the default position for all claims is to disbelieve until there is evidence to substantiate a reason to believe that claim. You, however, are claiming that the default position is belief until it can be disproven, but if that were the case, all exceptional claims, e.g., the existence of leprechauns, the tooth fairy, Bigfoot, etc., would be true until they were disproven. Like I said above, I cannot disprove your god, but neither can I disprove leprechauns, the tooth fairy or Bigfoot. The burden of proof, however, is not on me; it is on you for believing the claim. This is Logic 101.
Just because I don’t believe in any gods, including yours, does not mean I don’t have beliefs. The only difference between my beliefs and your belief in God is that I choose to have rational justification for my beliefs.
Best,
Luv2jabber
As I stated earlier, you are just a bully who is trying to make a point in what you believe in and put others down for what they do. I have yet to see you put anything on here that there is proof that God does not exsist. you evidently are just looking for attention. Your the one that got on here and started there is no God, it is your job then to prove the ones on here, including myself that you are right. Nothing you have said proves anything, just what you want to believe in.Really i feel sorry for you. you have nothing to beleive in. how sad....
luv2jabber, you are the only one on here that has been whining. All you want to do is get on here and argue. you have no respect for anyone's beliefs and your basically a narcissistic person. You are the one who got on here saying there was no God, but your writing a check your ass cant cash, because you can not prove that there is no God.All you are doing is using theories that others have made and trying to make a case out of something that you have no proof in, The non existence of God. No you would rather call God a fairy tale or whatever, that does nothing to prove your point, no you would rather believe that there was this giant bang in the space, and from that dust life began. from the primordial ooze, funny thing is there are just as many scientists that will state that life, even the existence of one living cell is only possible from intelligent design. So you believe in your big bang theory, what ever gets ya through the day, And I will keep believing in my God, So why not just quit being such a bully and stop already. you have become a bore...
when Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of knowledge, they knew between right and wrong. God does tell us things to do, look at the ten commandments, but God does give us free will weather we decide to follow it or not. once again your looking at a church group who jailed Galileo, and the parents who beat and kill their children. Did God tell them to do that, no, put your faith in God not men cause men will fail. Do you realize how many church's i have gone to and have had a falling out, to many to count, but it was never God's fault, it was men trying to put their own spin on God's word, that is why you have to read the Bible for yourself. Your seeking answers on here that i cannot give, and noone knows all the answers. You can pray and read the word for answers that you seek, or not. that is the wonderful thing about God. he let's us decide and make our own decisions on our actions, beliefs and behavior, whether you choose to follow or not. when i look in my daughters eyes i know there is a God, when i feel the light warm breeze of spring, i know there is a God and when i feel joyful and i feel my heart is full and i feel like crying because i am so happy that i am one of God's children, i know he is real and loves me and you.
Jacobs,
No, I do not want people to respect my views; I could care less if anyone respects my views. I present well-informed arguments based on sound reasoning – regardless of what other’s think. I don’t need other people’s approval to know my reasoning is sound as I have spent my whole life surrounded by Christians who disagree with my beliefs. They have challenged my beliefs, or lack thereof, and I have used those challenges to present the arguments you see here. Instead of whining about me being “condescending and hateful”, why don’t you develop an argument in support of your deity? If you cannot do so, maybe you should reconsider your belief.
If everyone went around respecting other’s beliefs, how would we learn anything? People used to believe the earth was the center of our solar system, which was supported vehemently by the church. In fact, the church made Galileo recant his belief that the sun is the center of the solar system and made him spend the last years of his life under house arrest for making such a blasphemous claim. What if we all stayed quiet and didn’t challenge other people’s absurd beliefs? Where would we be?
I would hate to live in a world where we did not challenge each other’s beliefs, including my own. I think I’m a better person because people challenged my beliefs; I’m smarter, and I have a much fuller life than what I would have had if people had not challenged me, even beyond religion.
I am assuming you have never been challenged when it comes to your religious beliefs, which is why you are so upset by what I have said. I assure you, however, that I am not upset by what people have said to me, including you, as I would rather everyone disagree with me than to be wrong. If, however, someone presented an argument that demonstrated the existence of a god, I would have to reassess my thinking as I am seeking the truth, but no one has done that. Again, are you going to present an argument for the existence of your god, or are you going to continue whining? Do you need the assurance that Luv2jabber respects your belief in a sky fairy in order to rest at night?
Best,
Luv2jabber
luv2jabber,you want people to respect your views but that will never happen as long as you mock what other people believe in. If you do not believe in God, fine, that is your right, just as it my right to believe in God.You are so condesending and hateful to anyone who does not agree with you.
Tammy,
Yes, I agree that God is not a person and cannot be thought of in the same way one would think of a person, but right and wrong are independent of God; you realize that, don’t you? Therefore, God should be criticized for his lack of morality and his unethical commandments.
I also agree that people interpret the Bible differently, but how could anyone honestly read the Noah flood story and not take it for what it really is: a demonstration of how Yahweh is a mass murdering, psychopathic, death obsessed, crybaby deity who kills everything he possibly can when he doesn’t get his way (Genesis 6:5-7)? It reads exactly like an ancient cultural fairy tale.
You seem to look at these sorts of atrocious acts attributed to your god through rose-colored glasses – as if there were nothing wrong with these horrible acts. It is even worse, however, when people use the Bible to justify their horrendous actions. Take for example when parents beat their children to death. They often justify their actions by quoting scripture (Proverbs 13:24, Proverbs 23:14, Proverbs 29:15), but we can ask the obvious question without waiting for some sort of “revelation” in heaven. Is it a good idea to subject a child to pain and violence as a way of encouraging healthy emotional development and good behavior? Your god clearly thinks so, and as a result, people actually take these Bible verses to extremes by beating the hell out of their children.
I understand that people interpret the Bible differently, but why wasn’t God straightforward when it came to how he wanted his people to behave? And why does the Bible represent a deity that is insanely unethical in his actions? He could have given us an ethical book to live by, but there is nothing in the Bible that couldn’t have been written by someone from the 1st century. You see, people in the first century actually thought it was okay to abuse children, take slaves, and kill a woman because she wasn’t a virgin. In other words, people who take the Bible seriously are getting their moral guidance from an ancient, barbaric civilization, which is exactly what is reflected throughout the Bible.
What if Leviticus 25:44-46 actually said the following? “No more male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you, or anywhere. From them, you may never again buy slaves. Slavery is a moral outrage, and must end immediately. You may not buy any of the temporary residents living among you nor members of their clans born in your country. They are people, just like you, and you are to treat them with the kind of respect you would want for yourself. They will never be your property. You cannot bequeath them to your children because they are not your property. Take the slaves you now have and make them free for life, and you must not ever again rule over any human ruthlessly. Have some humanity.” Now compare that to what the Bible actually says while keeping in mind that the god of the Bible is omniscient. He would have known that slavery is wrong, but he does not say so. Imagine all the pain that could have been prevented if the god of the Bible said things such as what I wrote above instead of the horrible things he actually said. A Christian's moral compass, as guided by her religion, would not be miscalibrated if this were the case.
The meaning of words like moral, immoral, right, and wrong in a Christian worldview are not without devastating problems. Christian philosophy and morality has always seemed to me like living in an M.C. Escher staircase painting. In other words, how many steps is it going to take you to realize you’re not getting anywhere and you never will? Enter the Euthyphro dilemma: is something moral because it’s commanded by God or does God command it because it’s moral? If something is moral because God commanded it, than morality would be arbitrary – meaning that no matter what God commanded it would become “moral” by definition – even if it caused endless, unnecessary suffering. This is a problem because it renders it a meaningless tautology to say that God or his commands are good. Now on the other hand, if the latter is true, it means God is appealing to some moral standard external to himself – making him “just the messenger” rather than the actual source of morality. This, of course, exposes theism as unnecessary for objective morality.
By the way, you suggesting I pray to your god to get to know him better is like someone suggesting that you pray to Priapus to get to know him better. You don’t believe in Priapus, do you? Nor do I believe in your god, so why would I want to pray to him? Which brings me to the last part of your reply: Since it comes down to the nativity not hurting anyone, I guess it would be okay if the library put Priapus in the showcase next year? According to your logic, he wouldn’t hurt anyone, so why wouldn’t it be okay to give his worshipers special privileges by allowing him to be displayed alone in the showcase? It’s because he is an embarrassing god – just like yours – who belongs at home or in a church – not a building funded by tax payer dollars.
Best,
Luv2jabber
"The mission of the Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science is to support scientific education, critical thinking and evidence-based understanding of the natural world in the quest to overcome religious fundamentalism, superstition, intolerance and suffering."
Kind of odd that a group that wants to overcome intolerance, only tolerates those who agree with them.